WEBVTT Kind: captions; language: en-us NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 89% (HØY) 00:00:03.500 --> 00:00:10.700 Hi all and welcome to this first installment of our short series of meet the anthropologist 00:00:10.700 --> 00:00:18.150 conversation today I'm joined by Alpa Shah who's an anthropologist at the London School of Economics 00:00:18.150 --> 00:00:25.700 we read her article titled "ethnography participant observation a potentially revolutionary Praxis" on 00:00:25.700 --> 00:00:32.700 this course she has also authored a very large amount of articles and also books I won't NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 85% (HØY) 00:00:32.700 --> 00:00:38.900 mention all of them here but only draw your attention to a relatively recent one that came out not 00:00:38.900 --> 00:00:46.300 too long ago it's titled night march and it looks like this, and it is available at our library which 00:00:46.300 --> 00:00:54.300 is a very unusual and also spectacular account based on field work among Maoists in India a very 00:00:54.300 --> 00:01:00.550 both unique book and also a very unique form of ethnographic fieldwork so Alpah thank you for 00:01:00.550 --> 00:01:02.650 for joining us today and NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 86% (HØY) 00:01:02.650 --> 00:01:08.600 taking a break from your summer holiday to talk with me. It's a pleasure to be here 00:01:08.600 --> 00:01:15.000 Kenneth yeah hi everyone. So if we have a look at the article that we are reading as part of 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:22.800 this course you begin by referring to a statement by the Anthropologist Tim Ingold and he 00:01:22.800 --> 00:01:31.200 simply says that's enough about ethnography. In this course we haven't read Ingold's piece so our 00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:32.800 students will have no knowledge NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 82% (HØY) 00:01:32.800 --> 00:01:38.550 really about what's in Ingold's article so could you please tell us a bit more about his claim 00:01:38.550 --> 00:01:45.000 about enough ethnography and also the kind of debate about ethnography that you are 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:53.800 stepping into with this article. A: Sorry Kenneth one second. 00:01:53.800 --> 00:02:02.650 Sorry summer holidays here so do expect to get bombarded by lots of kids wanting NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 87% (HØY) 00:02:02.650 --> 00:02:08.800 To listen to our conversation. So yeah let's get back to Tim Ingold yeah well you 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:17.800 know what Kenneth I mean to be honest is kind of a sideshow the Tim Ingold statement in my 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:27.300 article I'll give you the context. I had done this field work that you referred to amongst the 00:02:27.300 --> 00:02:32.700 Adivasis indigenous people of India and amongst this NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 80% (HØY) 00:02:32.700 --> 00:02:41.100 left-wing maoist underground insurgency was spreading and I happen to spend a lot of time not only 00:02:41.100 --> 00:02:47.300 with the indigenous people but also with these guerrillas you know and I'd come out 00:02:47.300 --> 00:02:53.100 of this study and I was back in England and I was back in London and I was you know trying to make 00:02:53.100 --> 00:03:02.649 sense of it all like what I'd experienced and so it's in trying to make sense of what I NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 71% (MEDIUM) 00:03:02.649 --> 00:03:07.300 had experience and what it contributed the new kinds of knowledge it contributed to what we 00:03:07.300 --> 00:03:14.700 understood about the situation about the Indian adivasis the maoists and what literature was already 00:03:14.700 --> 00:03:20.500 there, and what I thought my ethnographic work was contributing in trying to make sense of all of 00:03:20.500 --> 00:03:28.200 that I realized you know that I really had some significant things to say about ethnography and 00:03:28.200 --> 00:03:32.649 participant observation and its powers NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 72% (MEDIUM) 00:03:32.649 --> 00:03:41.400 I was invited to be I think we have in London we have something called ?laminar? anthropology 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:48.300 where students especially PhD students aspiring PhD students master students who are inspiring 00:03:48.300 --> 00:03:54.400 undergraduates who wanted PhDs they all come together once a year in this London 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:59.200 anthropology day and it's a lovely place you know full of like young people who want to be anthropologists 00:03:59.200 --> 00:04:02.700 Or who is becoming anthropologists and NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 77% (HØY) 00:04:02.700 --> 00:04:10.300 and we have like a day of papers that are being presented mainly by people who young anthropologists 00:04:10.300 --> 00:04:16.200 have done their fieldwork and some people commenting on them and just place to meet 00:04:16.200 --> 00:04:22.250 each other get to know each other's work and just a very nice lovely warm atmosphere and I was 00:04:22.250 --> 00:04:30.200 asked to be the opening panelists at this London anthropology day and so I thought well 00:04:30.200 --> 00:04:32.350 you know let's go out and NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 85% (HØY) 00:04:32.350 --> 00:04:39.400 And you know we share the sparks of anthropology and what's so beautiful about it and especially ethnography 00:04:39.400 --> 00:04:45.700 and especially participant observation and inspire all of these young people and give them more 00:04:45.700 --> 00:04:53.350 power to do what they're you know to carry on their Journeys and so I wrote this piece on 00:04:53.350 --> 00:05:00.900 participant observation and why it's so significant what it enables us to say about the world and 00:05:00.900 --> 00:05:02.650 also how it might enable us to NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 80% (HØY) 00:05:02.650 --> 00:05:13.300 to change it you know. I did this piece and then somehow the editor of HAU who was at 00:05:13.300 --> 00:05:19.100 At a time a man called Giovanni ?DeCall? he heard about this piece and he said oh I 00:05:19.100 --> 00:05:25.000 heard you speak about participant observation and you know I've got this like papers 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:31.300 coming out and how you know it's all driven by this debate that Tim Ingold has ignited by saying 00:05:31.300 --> 00:05:32.600 that's it about ethnography NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 79% (HØY) 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:39.300 and so you know can I have your piece for this and I said sure I don't know anything about 00:05:39.300 --> 00:05:44.100 this debate but you know you can have a look at my paper if you think it fits in your going to take 00:05:44.100 --> 00:05:52.600 it you know so he looked at the paper and he said yes I want to put it out and I said oh 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:58.800 okay well he said well you weren't addressing this debate you know at the beginning and I'm telling 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:02.600 you all this because this is how I articles are made right sometimes NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 80% (HØY) 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:09.000 and so then I said okay that means I have to read this stuff okay 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:16.500 so I read this stuff and frankly I was like so kind of uninspired by it you know it 00:06:16.500 --> 00:06:23.200 was basically about territory marking or that's what it felt like you know Ingold was saying well 00:06:23.200 --> 00:06:28.600 ethnography ethnography all Anthropologist is saying that we do is ethnography 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:32.600 and that's what makes us anthropologists and you're saying well no no we can't just NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 86% (HØY) 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:39.049 become you know it's not just ethnography we're doing ethnography is different from anthropology and 00:06:39.049 --> 00:06:46.900 you know anthropology is amazing because it enables this comparative critical understanding of human 00:06:46.900 --> 00:06:53.100 being and human knowing you know, and ethnography is really just description and actually everybody 00:06:53.100 --> 00:06:59.400 is using this term ethnography whether your geographer or sociologists and it's becoming so diluted 00:06:59.400 --> 00:07:02.550 you know what they do and what we do is so different and you know we NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 76% (HØY) 00:07:02.550 --> 00:07:08.500 don't just do ethnographic description we do we do comparative you know theory which is 00:07:08.500 --> 00:07:14.100 Anthropology and he is basically getting fed up with others using this term ethnography and trying 00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:21.000 to separate these two and so you know 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:25.100 there's much more to be said about this but you know that's what he was driving this you know that's 00:07:25.100 --> 00:07:30.549 enough about ethnography and let's focus on anthropology and you know and so NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 86% (HØY) 00:07:30.549 --> 00:07:39.600 frankly I just thought you know this is all kind of although he wanted us not to be navel-gazing and 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:46.800 I thought well this actually is navel-gazing and and I thought well let's just you know there was 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:51.900 all these other pieces that came out in fact a wonderful piece by a Nordic anthropologist you know 00:07:51.900 --> 00:07:57.450 Signe Howell who actually wrote one of the best pieces in that debate which is about 00:07:57.450 --> 00:08:00.350 ethnography and the power of ethnography NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 79% (HØY) 00:08:00.350 --> 00:08:05.400 and I thought well let's just unite what's the best of all of these pieces and think through 00:08:05.400 --> 00:08:12.100 what is so amazing about ethnography because it isn't just pure description you know it does produce 00:08:12.100 --> 00:08:18.400 knowledge about the world that is new that is revelatory and that has a potential to change things 00:08:18.400 --> 00:08:23.700 and so I thought I'll just frame my my contribution my little contribution on participant 00:08:23.700 --> 00:08:30.600 observation and in terms of let's just take the best out of all of these debates and NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 83% (HØY) 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:36.299 let's put that to the floor so the whole Ingold thing you can definitely look up more into the debate 00:08:36.299 --> 00:08:43.299 it's all in those pages of the HAU but for me it was in some ways a sideshow is not as interested in 00:08:43.299 --> 00:08:48.700 what was going on in those debates as I was in trying to elicit the best out of it and show the 00:08:48.700 --> 00:08:53.200 power of ethnography and participant observation in particular NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 87% (HØY) 00:08:53.200 --> 00:09:00.100 K: and you capture your argument about the power of ethnography in the 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:06.050 subtitle of the article itself where you write that if ethnography at least potentially 00:09:06.050 --> 00:09:14.100 revolutionary praxis and as readers we note that you write practice with an X and not practice 00:09:14.100 --> 00:09:20.700 with a c and the T and that's of course a subtle but important difference between using the X 00:09:20.700 --> 00:09:23.450 and not using an X in the word Praxis NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 89% (HØY) 00:09:23.450 --> 00:09:30.800 could you maybe first just give us a summary of your main argument about ethnography as a 00:09:30.800 --> 00:09:38.300 revolutionary praxis and then also maybe explain to us the wider theoretical inspiration that you 00:09:38.300 --> 00:09:45.100 have for this claim I mean you go back to some of the grand old masters like Marx and Gramschi 00:09:45.100 --> 00:09:48.200 in making this argument about praxis NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 88% (HØY) 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:58.100 A: sure yeah so what I really wanted to focus on is what is at the core of ethnography which is 00:09:58.100 --> 00:10:04.000 participant observation right. This extraordinary thing that we do is unfold as soon as I said in the 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:09.300 article it's not only us that do it you know there are definitely people in other disciplines who 00:10:09.300 --> 00:10:14.900 sometimes do it even better than some of us do you know that's why I started with Paul 00:10:14.900 --> 00:10:18.500 Willis and James Scott's you know particular works NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 91% (HØY) 00:10:18.500 --> 00:10:24.800 anyway so what I was trying to say is that participant observation basically it's so incredible 00:10:24.800 --> 00:10:36.800 because what it makes us do it makes us live the lives of other people and see the world from 00:10:36.800 --> 00:10:44.300 Their point of view and in through that process it enables us to discover new ways of thinking 00:10:44.300 --> 00:10:48.650 about seeing and also acting in the world you know and it is NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 75% (MEDIUM) 00:10:48.650 --> 00:10:55.900 is because we're forced to in a way shed are ways of knowing the world and to really try to 00:10:55.900 --> 00:11:04.900 inhabit other people's worlds and their ways of being and seeing and doing and also 00:11:04.900 --> 00:11:10.700 in a way that is extremely democratic right there's a two-way process you know you're in constant 00:11:10.700 --> 00:11:15.500 conversation with the people you're living and working with but it's also really Democratic in the 00:11:15.500 --> 00:11:18.750 sense that it's you know it makes us NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 78% (HØY) 00:11:18.750 --> 00:11:25.200 we look at everything together we look at you know we don't separate off religion from 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:30.900 economics from politics we look at how everything is intertwined we try and actually do everything 00:11:30.900 --> 00:11:38.849 we do too much you know. We try to become masters of everything and not separate 00:11:38.849 --> 00:11:43.900 separate out different aspects of society and that also enables us to see connections that we 00:11:43.900 --> 00:11:47.950 wouldn't if we just you know focused on one aspect and NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 74% (MEDIUM) 00:11:47.950 --> 00:11:57.599 so I think that was like one of the things that I was really trying to focus on and 00:11:57.599 --> 00:12:06.600 and the other aspect which I think is really important why I use it particularly the X versus the 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:15.800 practice you know is that by doing this it enables us to see the relationship between history 00:12:15.800 --> 00:12:18.700 ideology and action in ways that we could never NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 73% (MEDIUM) 00:12:18.700 --> 00:12:26.700 See so I think I where I depart maybe from some of the kind of more old-fashioned ideas of 00:12:26.700 --> 00:12:32.900 anthropology where you're living with one culture and understanding that culture is I'm trying to 00:12:32.900 --> 00:12:38.000 also grapple with the fact that we're always all changing you know and and transformation is an 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:46.600 inherent part of societies and we're not like islands of history, and that we are related to other 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:48.650 people all the time and they're these longer NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 72% (MEDIUM) 00:12:48.650 --> 00:12:57.000 term processes that are impacting on any particular group of people and so that's why I'm really 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:03.400 interested in the relationship between history, ideology, and action in the ideology and action that 00:13:03.400 --> 00:13:10.900 the processes of change and that's why when I talk about you know long-term engagement that the 00:13:10.900 --> 00:13:16.900 relationship between intimacy and estrangement I'm also talking about revealing social 00:13:16.900 --> 00:13:18.700 relations of a group of people NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 70% (MEDIUM) 00:13:18.700 --> 00:13:26.100 in which I consider the processes you know to the longer-term processes in which across time and 00:13:26.100 --> 00:13:36.000 space which people are involved in to be crucial. For me you know ethnography is 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:44.400 potentially revolutionary because it's not only teaching us to see the world through other people's 00:13:44.400 --> 00:13:48.650 points of view and other ways other ways of being and acting in the world NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 80% (HØY) 00:13:48.650 --> 00:13:53.700 but it also enables us to see the kind of relationship between those perspectives and the 00:13:53.700 --> 00:14:00.700 longer-term processes of history the processes of change which are constantly transforming Society 00:14:00.700 --> 00:14:08.600 right so that you know means it for me it's like it we can see how things remain the same but 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:13.600 also how you know dominant structures of power or authority can be challenged and that's like what 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:18.650 I was really trying to get at and yes of course this is very much inspired by a long NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 83% (HØY) 00:14:18.650 --> 00:14:27.849 tradition of you know thinking about revolutionary social transformation which you can you know 00:14:27.849 --> 00:14:36.200 Marx who said you know philosophers have only interpreted the world the point is to change it and 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:43.599 any of this is of course also influence its for me also I've always been interested in how you know 00:14:43.599 --> 00:14:48.600 how we can make a better world and you know you both know NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 81% (HØY) 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:55.700 night March which is engaged in people who are actually trying to do this and these maoists 00:14:55.700 --> 00:15:00.400 revolutionaries and so I'm really trying to understand the world from their from the point 00:15:00.400 --> 00:15:04.000 of view of the adivasis who they're living with but also from the point of view of the 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:11.500 revolutionaries and thinking through with them you know their own kind of processes of change which 00:15:11.500 --> 00:15:18.450 in you know as night March which is a kind to to highlight to everybody here NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 90% (HØY) 00:15:18.450 --> 00:15:24.300 the outset kind of you know it's like a big tragedy because it looks at how these groups this group 00:15:24.300 --> 00:15:31.600 of people is amazingly trying to transform the world but also you know how it how they fail at it 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:37.300 you know the beauty of their Vision but also how they're completely undermining what they're doing 00:15:37.300 --> 00:15:46.500 the whole time from within and in a way I'm like you know I'm showing the powers that 00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:48.550 anthropology might have in that NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 78% (HØY) 00:15:48.550 --> 00:15:54.400 Power of transformation that they're also interested in and my older work is also 00:15:54.400 --> 00:16:03.100 influenced in fact by similar Visions but maybe we can talk more about that later but yeah so and 00:16:03.100 --> 00:16:10.000 and yeah you mentioned Marx of course Gramschi too you know who is very much thinking about ideology 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:18.650 and ideology and social transformation, and a lot of my work contributes to that you know comes from NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 90% (HØY) 00:16:18.650 --> 00:16:24.900 that tradition trying to rethink those traditions see the place that anthropology what anthropology 00:16:24.900 --> 00:16:31.200 Whether ethnography what participant observation can bring to 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:38.900 some of those debates. K: there's one line of argument in your article that also made me think 00:16:38.900 --> 00:16:47.300 about your first monograph in the shadows of the state that came out now I think 10 years ago 00:16:47.400 --> 00:16:48.550 where NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 74% (MEDIUM) 00:16:48.550 --> 00:16:56.200 you adopt a somewhat critical position against the certain forms of 00:16:56.200 --> 00:17:04.099 social activism and I note that in the article that we are reading on this course you argue 00:17:04.099 --> 00:17:12.900 strongly precisely forcing ethnography so profoundly political act as you just said now an act that 00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:18.300 allows us to challenge authority and to act better in the world so this is to me a kind of NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 91% (HØY) 00:17:18.300 --> 00:17:26.000 activist anthropology or at least engaged or committed anthropology if you can use those terms but to 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:34.600 you how does this kind of ethnography driven form of activism differ from other kinds of social 00:17:34.600 --> 00:17:40.700 activism that you also find in abundance in India for example where where you work. A: thanks 00:17:40.700 --> 00:17:47.050 Kenneth that's a really good question NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 75% (MEDIUM) 00:17:47.050 --> 00:18:00.300 so I think that a both in this piece and also in my earlier work a position that I'm really trying to 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:11.200 explore is you know it's very tempting to join hands you know totally with those people that are 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:17.600 already engaged in a kind of activism on the ground so in this article it's these NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 73% (MEDIUM) 00:18:17.600 --> 00:18:26.500 Maoists right engaged anthropologists could be and an anthropology that jumps in completely 00:18:26.500 --> 00:18:37.900 with the maoists and you know really tries to these are obviously people who are being portrayed 00:18:37.900 --> 00:18:46.200 as terrorists or being imprisoned they are under great a very challenging circumstance as far as the 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:47.500 state is concerned NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 85% (HØY) 00:18:47.500 --> 00:18:54.400 you know they are they're being killed the whole time and you know you could see that 00:18:54.400 --> 00:19:04.000 there could be an argument for not you know not showing I guess the darkest side of their own 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:11.300 practices or you know the temptation would be to these are the persecuted guys right these are the 00:19:11.300 --> 00:19:15.400 activists on the ground they're the ones that have given up their lives they're sacrificing 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:17.550 themselves for the cause and who am I'm just NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 72% (MEDIUM) 00:19:17.550 --> 00:19:21.900 An anthropologist I come from London for a couple of years and then you know it's lives in these areas and 00:19:21.900 --> 00:19:28.100 then goes back to the comfort of my you know family home and what's my responsibility you know 00:19:28.100 --> 00:19:35.200 shouldn't I just be like you know if I'm going to be living with these guys you know who are engaged 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:42.100 on the ground who are activists on the ground I should be just joining hands with them and I 00:19:42.100 --> 00:19:46.800 guess that is what I find quite disturbing NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 87% (HØY) 00:19:46.800 --> 00:19:56.800 about you know the relationship between anthropology and a kind of very self-professed form of activists 00:19:56.800 --> 00:20:06.500 anthropology right and what I'm trying to say here is that actually maybe if we do commit ourselves 00:20:06.500 --> 00:20:12.900 to that kind of long-term engaged anthropology of which comes from a very old-fashioned even a kind 00:20:12.900 --> 00:20:17.550 of anti revolutionary tradition you know we might actually NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 79% (HØY) 00:20:17.550 --> 00:20:25.500 we have something that we can contribute which is you know which offers the activists a new way 00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:32.000 to engage in their own world you know so like the maoists themselves you know they're like that they 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:38.200 are very interested in this criticism and self-criticism and you know and they were actually 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:43.400 very interested they are the only things that they said of me was you know you can write whatever 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:47.300 you want you can do whatever you want but just make sure you read our documents and NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 81% (HØY) 00:20:47.300 --> 00:20:51.400 they wanted me to read the documents because they wanted me to understand you know the world what 00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:56.200 they were trying to do from their point of view and I did read their documents and you know then I've 00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:02.100 written this this piece which is you know this book which is very sympathetic to them but also very 00:21:02.100 --> 00:21:06.300 critical of what they're trying to do and particular of many of the things that they're doing on the 00:21:06.300 --> 00:21:12.500 ground and I think that if I had just done an Engaged an activist anthropology of the kind of you 00:21:12.500 --> 00:21:17.500 know the militant anthropology of the kind that Nancy Scheper-Hughes for example has asked us to get NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 74% (MEDIUM) 00:21:17.500 --> 00:21:22.000 all of that you know it wouldn't have allowed me to have this kind of critical 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:32.700 perspective which on the activists themselves and so what I'm trying to do is yeah it is definitely 00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:41.500 a very engaged anthropology but not one in which we are we become activists only you know and 00:21:41.500 --> 00:21:45.800 otherwise you know what's the point of our anthropology I mean might as well just become an activist 00:21:45.800 --> 00:21:47.450 on the ground you know what's you know what's NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 79% (HØY) 00:21:47.450 --> 00:21:53.300 the point of this like silly process called participant observation and of course I'm 00:21:53.300 --> 00:21:59.600 still asking myself all these questions but you know in a way that is still the 00:21:59.600 --> 00:22:05.900 seeds of that were laid in my book in the shadows of the state which which is a kind of 00:22:05.900 --> 00:22:11.900 critique of some kinds of indigenous rights activism but if you you know when you read the book 00:22:11.900 --> 00:22:17.500 At the end you know I end on this NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 77% (HØY) 00:22:17.500 --> 00:22:24.200 epilogue which is called you know what I think I told that I was debating like what to call it and 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:29.100 in the end I call it you know Arcadian spaces so it's really like one of those like trying to 00:22:29.100 --> 00:22:37.000 resurrect these you know what could be a more engaged anthropology it's 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:45.200 just a kind of it's throwing out a few ideas that's all you know and I remember one of the reviewers 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:47.450 of the book you know who NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 80% (HØY) 00:22:47.450 --> 00:22:53.400 who reviewed the book as in before it was published said well this is a beautiful book and it's all 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:58.500 you know excellently researched and everything has been beautifully presented but then you know and 00:22:58.500 --> 00:23:03.700 it's all very grounded and critical and but then at the end she goes away and throws us these 00:23:03.700 --> 00:23:08.700 romantic ideas of what it would mean to have a better world and you know it 00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:15.500 completely departs from what the book is trying to do and you know and that was because 00:23:15.500 --> 00:23:17.500 I was even in NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 76% (HØY) 00:23:17.500 --> 00:23:23.400 that book and in everything I've done I guess still I was looking for you know what it is to 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:32.300 Be an engaged anthropologists and so that kind of engagement with the world the desire to make 00:23:32.300 --> 00:23:36.400 things better for the people that you're working with that has kind of been there from the beginning 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:44.400 and I guess I'm developing it much further in this article. K: yeah we've taken quite a 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.400 bit of your time already but if you have a few more minutes there's NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 69% (MEDIUM) 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:53.750 one last thing I would like to hear your views on which is something that I find myself thinking 00:23:53.750 --> 00:24:00.300 a bit about these days as well basically every time I teach this methods course and you 00:24:00.300 --> 00:24:06.000 mentioned in this article and this is claim that many seasoned anthropologists would 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:14.900 endorse that solid ethnographic fieldwork requires between 12 to 18 months of full immersion in an 00:24:14.900 --> 00:24:17.450 unfamiliar social setting so we are talking about NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 89% (HØY) 00:24:17.450 --> 00:24:23.000 year to a year and a half. If I look at the kind of anthropology degrees we offer at our 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:31.600 departments I think our MA students they might be able to manage six months of fieldwork within the 00:24:31.600 --> 00:24:40.100 study framework and the funding they are offered even those of our MA students who go on to do a 00:24:40.100 --> 00:24:46.800 PhD afterwards they may do a year of fieldwork for their PHD some to do slightly more so 00:24:46.800 --> 00:24:47.350 that NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 80% (HØY) 00:24:47.350 --> 00:24:53.900 always makes me wonder about whether we are actually in our methods teaching and our methods courses 00:24:53.900 --> 00:25:02.600 preaching ideals that are very difficult to practice I mean we have a hard time practicing what we 00:25:02.600 --> 00:25:08.500 preach because very few of our graduates will actually be able to do the kind of field work that we 00:25:08.500 --> 00:25:15.100 argue that they should properly be doing to do solid field work what's your view on this 00:25:15.100 --> 00:25:17.000 dilemma or this paradox? NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 82% (HØY) 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:25.200 A: yeah I feel that it's not about preaching it's about politics right I feel that we have to create 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:33.500 these spaces it's our responsibility to fight to create more space for field work or for that long 00:25:33.500 --> 00:25:39.300 term field work because I think it's really important firstly you know that you have to learn a 00:25:39.300 --> 00:25:43.600 language right I mean most of the time we're going to places where we don't speak the language you 00:25:43.600 --> 00:25:47.350 need to learn a language I mean that's absolutely crucial and NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 76% (HØY) 00:25:47.350 --> 00:25:57.000 that takes time and I mean your MA students do six 00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:01.600 months fieldwork I think that's amazing I think that's really great that MA students do six 00:26:01.600 --> 00:26:07.100 months fieldwork it gives them a taste of what field work is about. Our MA students don't do fieldwork 00:26:07.100 --> 00:26:13.700 usually at all you know and because as this realization that you can't really do very much in 00:26:13.700 --> 00:26:17.449 they don't have so long they have just like three months over the summer NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 74% (MEDIUM) 00:26:17.449 --> 00:26:23.900 And most write their MA thesis and that's not enough for field work so we don't even in fact often 00:26:23.900 --> 00:26:30.200 encouraged fieldwork for MA thesises has but PhD's I think is like it's a different kettle of fish and 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:37.300 you know I think we have to fight the cause we have to you know we have to aim within our own 00:26:37.300 --> 00:26:43.000 departments create the space for longer term field work and this is not just for PhD students is 00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:47.350 also for colleagues because it's really hard as I say in my article as well like you NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 87% (HØY) 00:26:47.350 --> 00:26:53.300 you get the chance maybe once when you do a PhD field work to do long-term fieldwork but afterwards 00:26:53.300 --> 00:27:00.900 It's so hard right once you are teaching as you are kind of you know like when are you going 00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:06.100 to get leave to go away for a year how are you going to be able to let you know about your family you 00:27:06.100 --> 00:27:12.500 know by this time you know we have like kids and folks back home how do we leave them for so long I 00:27:12.500 --> 00:27:17.400 mean all of these things are really tricky and really you know it's really difficult to NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 77% (HØY) 00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:22.200 achieve of course many anthropologists what they do is then they have long-term relationships with 00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:26.500 the field sites and they keep going back to the same field side then once they have already built 00:27:26.500 --> 00:27:37.400 the connections and deep deep relationships but yeah no I feel that it calls for us to make space 00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:44.200 to argue within our own departments why this is really important to create space for longer term 00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:47.350 field work and then as a united force speaking NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 83% (HØY) 00:27:47.350 --> 00:27:53.100 you know to the university as a whole to funding bodies like we you know we have to explain and I 00:27:53.100 --> 00:27:59.200 think that there's real potential here because so many people are really interested you know and now 00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:05.900 in ethnography more and more departments are on the one hand there's this drive towards Mass data 00:28:05.900 --> 00:28:11.700 and you know this kind of statistics and mass data and algorithms but on the other hand there's also 00:28:11.700 --> 00:28:17.350 this desire to you know we see ethnography being really NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 71% (MEDIUM) 00:28:17.350 --> 00:28:24.900 used by so many other disciplines and I think it's a space for us as I argue in the 00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:29.600 article I don't think we should like disregard this and just say oh you know it's geographers they 00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:34.000 just don't you know don't know how to do it and they doing something so weak and you know what's the 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:40.000 point of complaining I think it's a space for us to take hold off and expand our vision and get 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:45.200 into those debates and there are clearly people out there and Gillian Tett I don't know if you know 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:47.300 she's produced this new book called NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 78% (HØY) 00:28:47.300 --> 00:28:52.800 anthrovision she is a financial journalist she was originally an Anthropologist she's so you know 00:28:52.800 --> 00:28:59.200 she's so transformed by the power of what anthropology can do what ethnography can do 00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:03.550 and you know now this is like a best-selling book called anthrovision and she's researching how 00:29:03.550 --> 00:29:10.400 businesses can use anthropology there's a real thirst right for people want to want to know more 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:16.400 about ethnography how to do it and and it's a space that we can claim right now and expand our 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:17.350 vision and see this NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 83% (HØY) 00:29:17.350 --> 00:29:23.900 the time to kind of strengthen our position and through that you know make more space for us make 00:29:23.900 --> 00:29:30.550 more space for our own PhD students our own colleagues it's a really I see it as a very hopeful time 00:29:30.550 --> 00:29:39.000 right now in many many ways to create that space for longer term participant observation of the kind 00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:46.300 that I described in the article even though it might seem that the forces are against us. K: thank 00:29:46.300 --> 00:29:47.300 you so much for NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 85% (HØY) 00:29:47.300 --> 00:29:54.350 ending on such an optimistic note I must say I do share your optimism about the prospects of 00:29:54.350 --> 00:30:00.750 ethnography and anthropology also in the future and thank you not least for joining us for this 00:30:00.750 --> 00:30:07.500 conversation the first in the series of our short meet the Anthropologist conversation. This went 00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:13.900 on for much longer than I had hoped so thank you so much for contributing with critical insights 00:30:13.900 --> 00:30:17.300 and also perspectives on your own article thank you. NOTE Treffsikkerhet: 91% (HØY) 00:30:17.300 --> 00:30:23.600 A: It's a pleasure Kenneth and sorry to have gone on but I hope some of it is useful I hope 00:30:23.600 --> 00:30:28.800 some of it humanizes this piece of paper that you see in front of you or people that you see on your 00:30:28.800 --> 00:30:35.200 screen okay all the best to all of you and to you Kenneth.